Trading Card Collectors got problems

[Garulf]

Hi, I'm back!

I was last here for help with plastic toy collectible figures, which I still am kinda working with, but not today. I am here this time for help in a new hobby, collecting trading cards. I have been doing it with my daughter, in a small way for a few years, but have expanded and joining forum, found out they have got some real problems & no really knows what to do.

Big Problem One. Many newer cards (1990 and on) with UV coatings are sticking together. Some stacks are welding themselves into bricks. And these folks say they have had the cards in normal environments since they bought them, and swear there was no high heat incidents.

Putting them in polypropylene card pages or individual sleeves is about the only solution we have come up with.

Is there any chance of the UV coatings sticking to Polypropylene ?

Some, myself included have found examples (not commonly) of some oily substance leaching out of the Polypropylene, onto the cards but the cases I have seen it happen was when the polypropylene had becomed wrinkled/wavey, in some cases from sagging in a binder and one that was very warped may have been exposed to some heat.

If we put the cards in new/good condition polypropylene pages,etc, are we going from the frying pan into the fire ?(or was it the other way around ?). People are thinking for the long term, keeping their collection indefinately.

Any thoughts at all would be most appreciated. I have been doing the info searches and trying to learn, but there is just so much chemistry! And I have to admit I did not finish my Chemistry for Dummies book.

P.S. Any ideas on un-sticking the cards ? So far people have tried gentle flexing and it works (you hear a crackling noise), but sometimes the cards are damaged. They have experimented with throwing them in the freezer for a few minutes, with mixed results, mainly unsucessful though. I had a off-the-wall thought about hitting them with UV, but seeing as they are stuck, I though the UV wouldn't penetrate (would it ?)

I won't mention the other materials people are putting these things in just yet. The poly is is only really affordable option we know about for collections, for these card collectors have lots & lots of them. 100 little individual card protectors cost about $1.50. If you put them in poly pages in albums 100 9-pocket pages costs about $15.00.

Tom

[Len]

Tom,

I'm still thinking about all you said. There is a lot of info to consider. First, are you sure the sleeves are polypropylene? What you describe happening w/ the sleeve may be a separate issue from the UV card problem.

Do you have any information on the type of UV coating on the cards? What is it? Maybe there is a way to "fix" or completely "cure" the coating so that it does not exude or leach this sticky material during storage. Maybe the best recourse is to discuss this problem w/ the card makers. do they know they are making cards that stick together after storage like a brick!!!?

Len

[Louis]

It sounds to me like your cards are covered with a thin layer of plasticized PVC.

That explains the sticking and the leaching

[Will Call]

I think I would agree with Louis. Burt as Len stated, you need to find out what the UV coating is if there really is one.

It may be that they are adding a clearcoat ink.

[Garulf]

The voices have spoken!

Thanks Len, Yes a whole lot going on here. The newer cards have all sorts of glitzy additions. Besides the card stock, there is the ink layer, metallic looking sections, embossing, holograms, and then the UV coating. Some even have pieces of 35mm film (from the original movie reels) or pieces of actual costumes (!) imbedded. And many get theirs autographed on top of that. I am waiting for DNA samples to be next. But I guess one piece at a time is best.

Len, I am almost certain the sleeves are PP. The sticking was reported to have occurred with this page I am showing below. Most serious collectors have gone to this maker (Ultra Pro) and this page in particular. And for the most part they (and I) can say they have worked well for the 10-15 years we have had them. There are still PVC pages made and others that do not say PP, but state PVC free, which I would guess are Polyethylene or PP/PE blends. Reviewing the reports, sticking was reported when multiple cards where packed tighly in one pocket, and when metallic colored inks (gold & silver) where used by personalities to autograph them. Others report oily residue (they think leaching from the PP page) sometimes transferred onto the cards. I found this oily residue on a very warped page myself. Just yesterday someone reported a powdery residue (?) Yeah, I am trying to find out what I can on the UV coatings used and I will be contacting the companies when I can get some good data on which cards, from which makers. Doing the initial reading I see there are muliple issues with using comptible materials on the several layers and adjusting dry/cure times. One note on some metallic finishes (alkaloid I think) caught my eye as not being good to use with UV coatings. Some of these complicated cards have lots imbedded problems.



9-Pocket Platinum series Ultra Pro
Stock #W-209D-1*
Holds (9) 2-1/2×3-1/2 Cards
No PVC-Acid Free
Heavyweight Polypropylene
UV Protection
Super Strong Welds
Top Loading
100 Per Display

209D-1 * 3 Hole Page

That explains the sticking and the leaching[/quote]

[Garulf]

It sounds to me like your cards are covered with a thin layer of plasticized PVC.

That explains the sticking and the leaching

Hi Louis,

So this is the only description of UV coatings I could find:

"A UV formulation always contains the following ingredients:
- Diluting acrylates and acrylated oligomers, which are reactive materials forming the
backbone of the coating after drying.
- Photoinitiators, which under exposure to UV light form radicals that initiate a radical
polymerisation reaction between diluting acrylates and acrylated oligomers.
- Fillers and additives, which mostly do not participate in the polymerisation reaction
and thus remain as such in the cured network."

The terms are not familiar to me. Except 'Oligomer' sounding a little like a character in 'The Lord of the Rings' . Could any of the things listed be PVC ?

Tom

[Garulf]

I think I would agree with Louis. Burt as Len stated, you need to find out what the UV coating is if there really is one.

It may be that they are adding a clearcoat ink.

Hi Will Call,

I am a 'Tom' or 'Garulf' I guess, but I can be 'Burt' too. I dug up that generic description I posted in response to Louis, but will see if I can do better, and get something more specific for typical trading cards . Wish me luck though! I may have to go undercover.

[Dr. Dick]

It sounds to me like your cards are covered with a thin layer of plasticized PVC.

That explains the sticking and the leaching

Hi Louis,

So this is the only description of UV coatings I could find:

"A UV formulation always contains the following ingredients:
- Diluting acrylates and acrylated oligomers, which are reactive materials forming the
backbone of the coating after drying.
- Photoinitiators, which under exposure to UV light form radicals that initiate a radical
polymerisation reaction between diluting acrylates and acrylated oligomers.
- Fillers and additives, which mostly do not participate in the polymerisation reaction
and thus remain as such in the cured network."

The terms are not familiar to me. Except 'Oligomer' sounding a little like a character in 'The Lord of the Rings' . Could any of the things listed be PVC ?

Tom

Tom and Garuf'
As a chemist with experience in UV cured coating systems, when properly formulated the cured coating should not "stick to itself" when stacked under pressure. They can have a strong static electric cling property. If you are a National Geographic subscriber you may have seen this in their pages as they use UV cured inks in printing the magazine as do some other high picture quality publications. Your summary is basically correct for both UV inks and overprint varnishes. The high gloss school covers are overvarnished as were many record covers in the old days of vinyl records.

In addition to overprint varnishes to protect printed surfaces there are laminating films such as are used by some trade show exhibitors to laminate your business card for a luggage tag. Garuf you may need to determine if the cards were laminated by the distributors. Also if you have a college with analytical chemistry capability they can run a Infrared spectrum using ATR technology to determine the coating.

See if any of your collector friends have friends in the coatings industry with analytical capability as an alternate to the college course.

[Will Call]

I think I would agree with Louis. Burt as Len stated, you need to find out what the UV coating is if there really is one.

It may be that they are adding a clearcoat ink.

Hi Will Call,

I am a 'Tom' or 'Garulf' I guess, but I can be 'Burt' too. I dug up that generic description I posted in response to Louis, but will see if I can do better, and get something more specific for typical trading cards . Wish me luck though! I may have to go undercover.

Fat fingers meant But, not "Burt"

[Garulf]

[quote="Dr. Dick]
Tom and Garuf'
As a chemist with experience in UV cured coating systems, when properly formulated the cured coating should not "stick to itself" when stacked under pressure. They can have a strong static electric cling property. If you are a National Geographic subscriber you may have seen this in their pages as they use UV cured inks in printing the magazine as do some other high picture quality publications. Your summary is basically correct for both UV inks and overprint varnishes. The high gloss school covers are overvarnished as were many record covers in the old days of vinyl records.

In addition to overprint varnishes to protect printed surfaces there are laminating films such as are used by some trade show exhibitors to laminate your business card for a luggage tag. Garuf you may need to determine if the cards were laminated by the distributors. Also if you have a college with analytical chemistry capability they can run a Infrared spectrum using ATR technology to determine the coating.

See if any of your collector friends have friends in the coatings industry with analytical capability as an alternate to the college course.[/quote]

Hi Dr. D,

Just call me Burt . Do you mean that a overprint varnish is something used in addition to the 'UV coating' and being on top it is more likely the layer sticking ? Also by laminated by distributers, do you mean, not the manufacturer who made the card, but the retailers ? If thats the case, we do know is not the distributers. The cards are coming out of unopened boxes and packs already stuck together. I was opening some last night like that. A little less then 1/3 were stuck together, and many report the identical. Also too, the collectors although not understanding the chemistry, are very sharp eyed for details. They would quickly ID any seller tampering.
The static electricity angle is interesting. I have been playing Mad Scientist since I started on this (about a week ago). Trying to unstick the cards...with heat, then putting them in front of the ionizing aircleaner and turning this RF generator it is supposed to have in it. I tried leaving them on a power cord in use (EMF). Some have tried Microwave ovens! I even put them to my forehead and tried to think unsticky thoughts.

But are not at all sure that they are being properly cured, or even designed that carefully with longevity in mind. Actually we suspect that its such a competitive arena, that as soon as someone can come up with a new 'twist', a bunch are made and then on to something new. But I admit we are a bit like villagers with pitchforks and torches. The forum I am on is a small group, but I will ask if anyone has any college or lab connections. I have thought about asking for a MSDS from the manufacturers on the card coatings. The only one I asked for in the past, for a polymer sculpting clay, from a company, was very basic, and did not list ingredients. It just said if there was any hazards to people.

Thanks for your help!

Tom/Garulf/Burt

[Garulf]

Fat fingers meant But, not "Burt"

A-OK. But Fat-Fingered Burt does have a nice ring to it.

[Dr. Dick]

Just call me Burt . Do you mean that a overprint varnish is something used in addition to the 'UV coating' and being on top it is more likely the layer sticking ? Also by laminated by distributers, do you mean, not the manufacturer who made the card, but the retailers ? If thats the case, we do know is not the distributers. The cards are coming out of unopened boxes and packs already stuck together. I was opening some last night like that. A little less then 1/3 were stuck together, and many report the identical. Also too, the collectors although not understanding the chemistry, are very sharp eyed for details. They would quickly ID any seller tampering.
The static electricity angle is interesting. I have been playing Mad Scientist since I started on this (about a week ago). Trying to unstick the cards...with heat, then putting them in front of the ionizing aircleaner and turning this RF generator it is supposed to have in it. I tried leaving them on a power cord in use (EMF). Some have tried Microwave ovens! I even put them to my forehead and tried to think unsticky thoughts.

"Overprint varnishes" is a terminology used in the printing industry for a clear coating applied over the printed surface. In the case of UV cure inks and clear overcoats are applied in line with the clear coat being last to be applied. Some setups cure each ink after it is applied, others apply the uncured inks in a specific order followed by the clear overcoat and the whole system then UV cured. The reason that UV systems are used is speed. Solvent based inks and coatings take time to "dry" to touch. Thermal cure ink systems are faster but still much slower than UV which is almost instantaneous. Some existing printing lines have been modified to allow for the final clear coat to be a UV cure system.

As to laminating it would be don by the printer at the end of the press applying film to bottom and top of the printed stock prior to a laminating roll. Then the line is fed to a die cuter to produce the sets of cards.

Based on what you have said about "new" card packs, i would guess that the cards were not fully cured or dry when they were packed. Are cards inside a plastic film in the box or just tightly packed in the box. Are they from overseas or outside the US sources? So much stuff comes from China and some third world countries due to labor costs that it is possible to get low quality trading cards. The box should show the country of manufacture BUT be careful as there is a USA, Japan. I haven't heard of a USA, China or other country but they could exist.


Your best bet is to identify the coating and source of the cards.

[Garulf]

Based on what you have said about "new" card packs, i would guess that the cards were not fully cured or dry when they were packed. Are cards inside a plastic film in the box or just tightly packed in the box. Are they from overseas or outside the US sources? So much stuff comes from China and some third world countries due to labor costs that it is possible to get low quality trading cards. The box should show the country of manufacture BUT be careful as there is a USA, Japan. I haven't heard of a USA, China or other country but they could exist.


Your best bet is to identify the coating and source of the cards.

That made it quite a bit clearer to me about the process. It wasn't pertinant but I was just curious that when they hit it with UV, is it a really huge ammount (like 12 suns ) or just a real bright light, like at outdoor stadiums ? But some quick answers:

With the main series cards nearly all of the cards are in packs, inside boxes. The cards folks are mentioning and the ones I have are main series.

This was a partial list someone posted of cards/manufacturers that they had sticking problems with. Others mentioned many more. I suspect it will be a large & widespread list.

"Here are some others I have seen that exhibit this problem:

Marvel Silver Age (Fleer 1998)
Fleer Ultra X-Men Wolverine (1997)
ROYO 2 Fobidden (Comic Images)
Star Wars Galaxy 2 (Topps)
DC Vertigo (Skybox)
EVil Ernie II (Chaos Comics)
Simpsons Series II (Skybox)
DC Versus Marvel (Skybox)"

Topps, Fleer and Skybox are/were among the largest makers and I think are made in USA. But I will check.

Your comments help me figure out what questions to ask and who to ask. I will try to compile a list of bad series of cards and then of who's making them. I have read there are tons of companies who have done limited stuff, and much of that will be impractical to trace. I will probably focus on the few main companies, most of which are still around. As far as the imports go, I already have found when looking at the card protector makers, and action figures before this, that the easy trail to follow ends at the US coast. There is just no way (I have found) to easily identify which factory made things and to ask questions.

But I have some work to do now. Maker and Composition of the coatings. If anyone else has comments please do continue to share them. It is extremely helpful in trying to come up to speed and zero in on the right things in this chase.

Thanks for all, Tom

[Dr. Dick]

"That made it quite a bit clearer to me about the process. It wasn't pertinent but I was just curious that when they hit it with UV, is it a really huge amount (like 12 suns ) or just a real bright light, like at outdoor stadiums ? "

The UV is usually high powered from specially doped mercury lamps. You can more info at any of the UV equipment suppliers. RadTech International NA is the industry association and has a directory of members.

[Louis]

Maybe I misunderstood the problem. The plastic sleeve that you show is most likely PVC. Is that is what the cards are sticking to and what is oozing?